Dug this bullet last year????

[Gbrown]

This came from the area known as "The Battle of Goldsboro" which occurred early in the Civil war(1862). I guess they(The Home Team) were using old rifles.
This bullet is a 2-Ringer, around 58 cal.,flat base. It is not round, it's hard to see, but it has seven sides. Anyone have any idea's. Thanks for any info, HH, gary

[NB Digger]

The reason it has "7 sides" is because it has been fired! The "sides" you refer to are from the bullet taking to the rifling of the gun. As to its ID...I have no idea. Not seen one like it in .58 cal. Looks a little like a conferderate carbine .50 cal, listed as #71 in the T&T book! It was either rammed hard or fired with ramrod on it! Just a guess on my part though!
Travis

[Gbrown]

Thanks for the info. Travis, I'm pretty sure it's close to a 58 cal. The heptagon shape of the bullet is a first for my 200 plus bullet finds. I would also say in looking over all my fired bullets, it does show the hardest ram of the bunch. Again, thanks for the info. gary

[NB Digger]

I am not the most knowledgable about bullets so Roger or Tom H. might be able to offer much better insight than I! Sorry for not being more help.
Travis

[raw-war-digger]

Gary, So I guess TomH. has it now?! It seems to match the .50 caliber shown items better. I found it looks like the TT82 but this was a Breechloaded round......and wouldn't have the ramrod mark on the nose.
The MM book lists several rifles that had seven grooves in the .54, .56 & .58 range.......(listing the possible rifle that this minie could have been shot from).......not the minie itself: .58 Dickson Nelson Rifle, .56 Colt, .54 USA SS Pistol Model 1843, .56 Bavarian Tige Rifle, .54 USA Model 1804 Rifle, & .54 Perry Carbine (want be this one).

I Hope Tom Will Follow Up From Here,
Best I Can Do, Thanks Travis, Roger

[Gbrown]

Roger, thanks for the time you spent on the research. I am lacking much knowledge in this area, so any info. is very educational and interesting for me. I did butt it up against a dropped 58 cal. three ringer, and it's right-on the same size, so I feel confident that it's close to that caliber.
Again, thanks for the help, and if I find another one like it, I'll give it to you. HH gary

[Tom Stelma]

:) Hello,

I believe the bullet you found might be a 577-caliber 2-groove New Austrian compression formed bullet that has a ram-rod mark on the nose.

See Some Civil War Bullets 2, 06-177 or 178, McKee and Mason 108 and Thomas and Thomas 177.

I hope this helps you out just a little.

Tom Stelma

[Gbrown]

Thanks for the info Tom, I do not have any bullet books at this time, but I plan on a purchase in the near future. Again, thanks for spending the time on your research, HH gary

[Tom Henrique]

Gary,

I agree with Tom Stelma on this one (See Tom, it does happen from time to time :eek:). Looks like a "New Austrian", rammed hard and fired.

Here is an unfired example:

TomH

[Gbrown]

Thanks Tom, I will label it a New Austrain. The soldier must have had a hard time ramming it down that haptagon barrel. I guess I'm lucky it's in good shape to have been fired. Again thanks to all for helping ID the bullet!! HH gary

[Wilder]

Gary
I think the extreme ramming while loading is due to the fact that the New Austrian had no expansion cavity in the base to take to the rifling.
Anyone want to guess why this bullet pattern had no cavity if it was intended for a muzzle loading rifled musket?

[Gbrown]

If any one does not reply, and you know the answer Wilder, please let me know, thanks gary

[Tom Stelma]

The only reason I can come up with is there was a lot of early design & trials with various ammunition early on in the 1850's to the era of the civil war in England & European countries. the bullet in bold & slanted lettering have been found in American civil war sites.

The followng bullets were flat base the English Wlkinson bullets in 54-caliber, the New Austrian 577-caliber, the 69-caliber 1 & 2-groove Hanovarian, the Prussian bullet for Thouvenin tige rifle, the Jacobs bullet and many more. They were all looking for a better bullet just like today.

I hope this helps out some.

Tom Stelma

[Tom Henrique]

Folks,

Once it had been determined that rifling increased accuracy by improving trajectory it became neccessary to develop a bullet/rifle system to allow easy and quick loading while taking advantage of the rifled barrel.

The first system (circa 1500's) was a ball that was the same diameter as the bore and loaded with a ramrod and mallet. The ball was forced down the barrel and, in the process, would be sufficiently disfigured to engage the rifling. This was a slow process and considered unsuitable for military use.

Next was the patched ball or "American System" where the ball was loaded with a cloth patch which would fill the area between the bullet and the barrel ("destroying windage") and engage the rifling. This system was used with the Pennsylvania and Kentucky Rifles.

In the early 1800's new systems were developed around the concept of "Uniform Disfiguration of the Ball", where a ball of smaller diameter than the bore was used to facilitate loading. The breech was designed to change the diameter of the ball by striking the bullet with the rammer, thereby destroying windage. The three major developments in this system were:

The System of Delvigne: The breech contained a section of barrel that was a smaller diameter than the bore. The powder charge was contained in this area and the ball would be forced against the "shoulder" formed where the diameter decreased. One improvement was the inclusion of a patched wooden sabot to the ball (a smaller version of the solid shot and spherical shell configuration) known as the Pontchara System. Another improvement to the Delvigne System was to bevel the edges of the shoulder to assure correct centering of the ball before disfiguring. This was known as the Augustin System. All of these systems had problems with consistent disfiguration, i.e. ram too lightly and the ball did not destroy windage, ram too forcefully and the ball was so flattened as to affect trajectory.

Next was the system of Thouvenin, AKA "Rifle a la Tige" or "Tige Rifle". Thouvenin designed a breech with the same diameter as the barrel but containing a central stem called a "Tige". The powder would fill the area between the stem and the breech section of the barrel and the bullet would sit on the top of the stem ("Tige"). On ramming, the bullet was driven onto the stem and flattened, increasing the diameter and destroying windage. The bullet for this system was an elongated ball with a flat base and deep cannelures known as "Compression Rings" or "Compression Grooves". These cannelures served two purposes, 1. on disfiguration the narrow area in the base of the groove would compress, causing the bullet to expand into the rifling and 2. in flight, the cannelures improved trajectory, increasing accuracy. This system was adapted and adopted by France, Belgium, Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony, Mechlenburg (???? Where the hell is Mechlenburg????), Hanover, Oldenburg, Nassau, Sardinia, Austria, Luxembourg (all three soldiers in the Luxembourgian Army used them!) and Russia.

The final development before the ACW was the "Normal Form of the Ball" AKA the Minie System, using the elongated balls with cavities that we all know and love.

The Austrian bullet was designed for the Thouvenin "Tige" system, and if this fired example came from that system it would account for the enthusiastic ramming. Look for an area on the base showing contact with the tige. To make it more difficult, this bullet could also have been fired in a conventional Rifle Musket that was fouled, causing the soldier to use extra force while ramming and disfiguring the nose of the bullet.

Either way, it is a great bullet to find.

TomH

[Wilder]

TomH

Thank you so much, I always wondered who wrote “The History Of The Gun” for history channel on TV!

Everything you stated is quite correct but let’s bring this back to the ACW where the post began.

On page 174 of the current McKee & Mason book there is a diagram of the New Austrian which without explanation one would assume that the ball would be compressed by ramming into a gas seal by virtue of it’s extremely deep V cut cannelures as Gary’s fired bullet seems to be.

As you pointed out this gas seal method was less than perfect as the variations in the seal verses jamming, windage & accuracy depended too largely on the individual loading the weapon.

Also there seems to be two caliber .55 & .577 suggesting that these were adopted for use with the Lorenz and Enfield or similar model rifles.
Note the uncanny similarities with the European Lorenz bullet.

Why were the Confederates using this early bullet pattern at all?
One would speculate that they purchased these molds / rifles from European sources as they jumped at the chance to unload some inferior junk on the hapless Southern government!

The Mechlenburg area or also spelled Mechlenborg was a region in Denmark.

And I’ll have you know that my two great, great, great grandmothers were two of the three soldiers in the Luxembourgian Army!

[Tom Henrique]

Wilder,

I know that I don't have to say this to you but I will because I have extra time and am in the mood to stir stuff up. Just because a bullet is listed in McKee and Mason does not guarantee that it was an ACW Bullet. The Austrians (bullets, not immigrants) found in America could have been for personal weapons, either one carried by a soldier or one carried by a farmer. We have discussed "site contamination" in length on other forums (and in private emails), and, given the number of Austrians found here I believe that you are right on the money about them being sent over during the period when the Euro nations were dumping all the crap in their warehouses on the American armies.

The Austrian bullet was designed for a Tige rifle, but you are correct in assuming that a compression style bullet could be used in a conventional rifle musket. One major problem though, the force needed to compress the bullet would also compress the powder charge and would reduce the air spaces needed in a granular powder charge for proper combustion, leading to incomplete combustion, insufficient propellant gasses to achieve full muzzle velocity and excessive fouling. That was the whole purpose of the Tige in the Thouvinin design, to prevent the powder charge from being compromised while allowing sufficient force to alter the diameter of the ball. The Wilkinson bullet has compression grooves as well, but the design allows the bullet to be compressed on firing, causing the diameter to increase thus destroying windage.

I do believe (and this is strictly opinion and not substantiated by documentation) that Tige rifles were used in the early war when both sides were scrambling for weapons and anything that would push a projectile down a tube was used. The Tige system had several problems, including the corrosion of the Tige by the caustic gunpowder and combustion, the bending or breaking of the Tige by improper loading and the problems with cleaning the residue of combustion from the small area around the Tige. Like needle guns these weapons may have been used, but were replaced as soon as alternatives were available.

BTW: The large Hanoverian bullets we find in equal numbers to the Austrians were also Tige bullets.

Anybody find any Austrians or Hanoverians in late war sites?

Thanks for the info on Mechlenburg! I thought that it was east of Harrisburg here in South Central PA. Also, from what I have heard the Luxembourg army was small in numbers but tough in spirit. I have no trouble believeing that your great-great-great-grannies were somehow involved :rolleyes:.

TomH

[Gbrown]

Thanks Tom H., Tom S., and Wilder for all this great infomation. Very impressive to say the very least. I am posting the base of the bullet to show the marks on it. They may have been formed during ramming or after being shot, from farm plows. HH gary

[Wilder]

Oh Tom

You know I just love it when you stir stuff up!

And who said anything about the bullets in the M&M book being ACW usage; a bunch of them aren’t.

You said something about compressing the powder charge would reduce the air spaces needed in a granular powder charge for proper combustion; weren’t the pressed powder collodion cartridges by Hazard and other composed of granulated powder before they were compressed?

Hey; I’m trying hard to argue with ya!

I do agree with you about the Tige rifles used in the ACW and how early on all sorts of sorry excuses for guns were brought out of the woodwork.
But; the same situation existed with the country / picket rifles.
And what did they do to make accuracy possible/ Slap a patch on the ball!

Actually I believe the Mechlenburg’s were a family of nobles ruling the area at the time and thus the name.

I think you are confused about South Central Pennsylvania; it’s the Amish that are east of Harrisburg.

The reason that the Germans developed the Pickelhaube was because my great Granny’s kept hitting them on the head whenever they tried to sneak across the border!:)

[Tom Henrique]

weren’t the pressed powder collodion cartridges by Hazard and other composed of granulated powder before they were compressed?

Good point! I'm just quoting what I read but you make sense stranger and I would like to subscribe to your news letter.

I'll try to find the formula for pressed powder to see if there was some type of accelerant added to get around the lack of oxygen thing. Terry doesn't mention anything in his article (http://www.civilwarprojectiles.com/articles/pressed_powder_charges.htm (http://www.civilwarprojectiles.com/articles/pressed_powder_charges.htm)) about Hazard adding anything before compressing the powder cakes.

Great thread, hope we aren't boring everybody ;).

TomH

[Gbrown]

I'm thinking of going back to the Goldsboro bridge and burying the bullet....Then go join the Luxembourgian Army.

[Wilder]

Tom

I don’t know the recipe for the pressed powder cartridge either?
One difference is that the pressed powders were used with the Minie pattern ball which was not gas sealed until the powder exploded.

Gary

Perhaps it’s only me but I don’t recall seeing a fired New Austrian before, only dropped ones.
There may be buckets of them out there that I’m not aware of; would like to know how many others have dug fired one.

[Tom Henrique]

Wilder,

I spoke to Jim and Dean Thomas today and got the following input.

1. Dean remarked that he had read that one of the characteristics of the Tige design was the elimination of over compressed powder as well. The primary purpose of the Tige was to act as an anvil to facilitate the disfiguration of the ball but the protection of the powder was also considered important.

2. Jim said that except for a small amount of water there were no added ingredients to the powder in a Hazard pressed powder charge, the damp powder was pressed into shape, attached to the bullet and dipped in Collodion. From broken cartridges that he has examined it seems that the powder is not compressed enough to become a solid, only a packed cake of granules. This would allow sufficient air in the cake to provide proper combustion. Don't forget, the Tige system was designed to "disfigure" the ball and the soldier was instructed to ram the bullet a particular number of times once the ball was seated in the breech. This would result in more force than a minie ball being loaded, since the minie was driven down to the breech then tapped with the rammer to seat it on the powder.

In an earlier post in this thread you mentioned that you felt that "these were adopted for use with the Lorenz and Enfield or similar model rifles." I do not believe that is the case since both the Enfield and Lorenz had conventional breech designs and, lacking the Tige, loading a bullet intended for Uniform Disfiguration in these weapons would involve enough force to compress and damage the powder charge.

Gary,

I agree with Wilder about never having seen a fired Austrian. Anybody else have one?

Just a humble opinion,
TomH

[Wilder]

TomH

How very simple the damp pressed powder charges was, I wonder how long they had to dry it before the Collodion dipping?
These cartridges survive remarkably well!

Yes the Tige system was a good design for its time but I would hate to have to pull a loaded Tige bullet from the barrel and clean the bottom of its bore.

Perhaps we are comparing apples to oranges talking about the two systems.
But let’s go back to the origin of the subject the New Austrian bullets used by the Confederacy.
Being around .55 to .577 calibers it does not exclude it from use in the Tige barrel rifles but I don’t recall seeing many Civil War period usage of this type system.
Perhaps there are and I am just not aware if it?

I’m not convinced that Gary’s bullet shows a definite pillar marking.

Excerpts from the McKee & Mason book says as such:
after the improved chambering design of Claude Minié in 1849 the companies of Wilkinson and Pritchett in England plus others in Europe expanded on his approach. Variations were tried in depth and shape of cavities, solid bases with grooves in body, and of course in size and refinements in shape.

Note the mention of solid bases with grooves tried at this time line.

Perhaps it was a design for the Enfield and Lorenz or other rifles and was just a failure?
Obviously the New Austrian pattern as we know it did not survive very long.
I’m guessing the New Austrian bullet was of the close pre Civil War period and as we both stated was a piece of junk unloaded on the Confederacy.
If fired recoveries are rare as we suspect most likely the Confederate soldiers issued these bullets found out what junk they were due to compressed powder failure perhaps and happily pitched them away?

[Tom Henrique]

Wilder,

How very simple the damp pressed powder charges was, I wonder how long they had to dry it before the Collodion dipping?
These cartridges survive remarkably well!

Sometimes the simplest solution is the best.

Yes the Tige system was a good design for its time but I would hate to have to pull a loaded Tige bullet from the barrel and clean the bottom of its bore.

The main reason the system was abandoned. Eventually enough residue collected around the tige to prevent proper loading. The powder was forced up over the top of the Tige and crushed when the bullet was rammed.

Being around .55 to .577 calibers it does not exclude it from use in the Tige barrel rifles but I don’t recall seeing many Civil War period usage of this type system.

I have never seen any documentation about these rifles being officially issued. Which leaves, private ownership or small militia purchases.

I’m not convinced that Gary’s bullet shows a definite pillar marking.

I agree, the tige would leave a noticible impression in the base.

If fired recoveries are rare as we suspect most likely the Confederate soldiers issued these bullets found out what junk they were due to compressed powder failure perhaps and happily pitched them away?

I have never seen any documentation that either side produced or issued these bullets. I believe the ones that have been found were cast from the moulds that would have come with the rifle. Again, no documentation of issue so no reason to produce the bullets.

Wow, a very productive week. We put the issue of the "British Sharp(e)s" to bed on another forum and settled the Tige issue here. Let's work on the CS/GA basemarked enfields next :eek:

Later,
TomH
(Kogi says he wants to meet you to tell you what you can do with your skateboard)

[Wilder]

TomH

No; what I wan to tackle next is the 69 caliber Williams Cleaner
Type 3 bullet that appeared on eBay the other week! :rolleyes:

Well Kogi is just going to have to make a decision;
either trick skateboard riding or Texas ditch surfing!:cool:

[Tom Henrique]

Wilder,

I missed that one, it seems that Williams bullets are showing up in all types of calibers lately, .52, .69 :rolleyes:.

Since I don't see myself driving Kogi around with a rope in his teeth so he can do some Texas Ditch Surfing I guess he'll have to settle for skateboarding. For those members that are confused about who the hell Kogi is, he is my 5 1/2 month old, 75 pound (as of Monday) Akita puppy. He is the one in the front in the attached photo, the one in the back is Peach, our 7 year old female. Wilder keeps threatening to leave the swamps of New Orleans and come up to the Burg to visit but I am worried about him trying to BBQ one of the dogs. He is a card carrying, badge wearing member of P.E.T.A. (People Eating Tasty Animals) and them black water Cajuns will fry anything!

Later,
TomH

[NB Digger]

The dogs are beautiful Tom!! Don't worry we in Va. don't fry dog. We prefer BBQ'd!!! LOL!
Travis

[Wilder]

For any of you that didn’t know that TomH lived for a while in Texas here is clip of his home movie with his buddies.
Tom is the one lying down in the ditch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYb954Oi2Bk&NR=1

[reirelics]

Great video there Tom, Looks like a nice bunch of guys the kind
i hang with
Raymond:D

[Wilder]

Well speak of the Devil!
Here is a fired one!
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-T-T-177-New-Austrian-bullet-Richmond-VA-relic_W0QQitemZ260208514052QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1039 96QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Tom Henrique]

Wilder,

I do not think that is an "Austrian", the seller describes it as dropped which makes the profile all wrong.

Looks like an very worn Hayes for Army revolver to me:

http://www.baymediapro.com/collection/bullet_details.asp?BID=162

Just a humble opinion.

TomH

[Gbrown]

Wow!! $175.00 for a New Austrian, is that true??I would think that a fired example would have a significant impact on a lessor value. I agree Tom, the E-Bay example looks to be a fired bullet. Just my opinion of course,(I could be wrong).Thanks Wilder for posting the bullet, gary

[Wilder]

TomH
I think it is a fired bullet: that’s why I posted it.
Paul specifically says it is a T&T 177 so if it is a
44 caliber Hayes he is awfully confused.

[Tom Henrique]

Wilder,

I just emailed Paul to see if he can provide a diameter on that bullet. I don't see any evidence of firing, but it is very worn down so rifling could be obliterated. To me, the profile looks more like the Hayes than the Austrian, but again, that is just a humble opinion.

Speaking of opinions, I was wrong about the Austrian being developed as a Tige Rifle bullet. I spoke to Jim Thomas about it this morning and he and Dean believe it was designed during the period when the Wilkinson bullet was developed and would work on the same principle. The compression grooves would collapse on firing, not when seated on a Tige. So... it should be considered a Rifle Musket bullet. Still no idea on manufacturing location though.

Gary,

The North South Traders Price Guide puts the value of a dropped New Austrian at $150 tops, but generally, their prices run a little low.

Later,
TomH

[Wilder]

TomH
Without any explanation of the size that bullet looks like a dead on Hayes!
Paul said in his ad that the New Austrians were made in North Carolina.
I don’t know anything about that but weren’t the domestically made Wilkinson’s made in North Carolina?

Gary
The last few nice dropped New Austrians that I’ve seen sell have gone for around $125.00 or so.

[Tom Henrique]

Wilder,

In the new edition of TT it states that the New Austrian was developed in Austria for the Lorenz Rifle and later produced in North Carolina (like the Wilkinsons produced for the North Carolina Rifle .50/.54).

The Lorenz however was originally produced in .54cal and many of those imports into the Federal stockpiles were later rebored to .58cal, but I cannot find any references to the CS reboring them as well. I'll keep looking.

TomH